Living 20 years in New Zealand is not what made me a Kiwi. Embracing the value system, learning how to really relax, and unlearning some of my harder American habits (workaholism) was very necessary.
Hey Rebel! I love this! Values over time. Values can creep with time, maybe, but I think you're right that it's gotta be a concious choice: an embrace. But 'national values' get tricky sometimes, too. There are workaholic natural-born Kiwis, surely. Which values get you there quicker, and which can you take or leave? What Americanness have you kept? I love these questions...!
Thanks! An interesting conversation, I'm glad you recorded and posted it. It covers a lot of topics I find myself thinking about from time to time.
Had I watched the conversation as it unfolded, I might have asked a question or two. Many of these conversations about identity and the experience of Americans who have left home for elsewhere refer to a common American experience and identity, seemingly referring to an American monoculture that embraces such concepts as "exceptionalism" (or "privilege, as Dan seem to interpret it--and how I see it, too). How does that square with the actual diversity of American culture and the concept of a "melting pot" that Gregory refers to? (Note that ca. 15 percent of current US citizens were born in another country.)
Is the concept and identity you hold as Americans itself exceptional, one that might not be shared uniformly in the US? Is it an identity associated with some class of non-indigenous, anglophone Americans who are generations removed from immigrant forbears? Is it the lingering sense of otherness one experiences living in other cultures that provoke us to reflect on this topic?
A different topic, perhaps, but I also feel that some Americans these days are keen to impose otherness as an identity on their fellow citizens who do not *appear* to be part of a prevailing anglophone monoculture. Maybe part of another conversation sometime ...
Hi John! Thanks so much for listening, and your thoughtful reply! You're absolutely right that these conversations can't help but relying on broad generalizations. Sometimes that's just how nations work--I do believe there are some shared values and ways of thinking!--but other times this totally misses the point.
Last year I wrote a piece about Americans abroad thinking themselves 'exiles' and a reader patiently noted that there are plenty Americans *who are already exiles from somewhere else* and would read the question very, very differently! Writing/speking in the internet is a great way to learn your own blindspots.
One of the great pleasures of living abroad is bathing in that 'otherness' you feel in another country. Kiwis will do or say something here and you get these flashes like--aha! That's just not the way this would roll at home, and I never realized this was an 'American' thing!
Maybe I'm romanticizing this in these strange days we're living through. I think we could use a few easy generalizations to hold us together--not the bullshit racist ones, either. Big tent stuff. Maybe we can start with our comically loud speaking voices and go from there. More conversations ahead, for sure!
Hi Rebecca! Mexican food will always welcome you home. For this AZ/TX boy it's more or less air. And that 0-100 trick I thought I knew so well is currently messy my US/NZ boundaries pretty fierce...use wisely :)
Hi Brad! Glad you dug it! You feel all this for sure! Gave you a shoutout, as an American in NZ who (I think) still feels American. Me too. Mostly. Ah, the big messy questions!
Living 20 years in New Zealand is not what made me a Kiwi. Embracing the value system, learning how to really relax, and unlearning some of my harder American habits (workaholism) was very necessary.
Hey Rebel! I love this! Values over time. Values can creep with time, maybe, but I think you're right that it's gotta be a concious choice: an embrace. But 'national values' get tricky sometimes, too. There are workaholic natural-born Kiwis, surely. Which values get you there quicker, and which can you take or leave? What Americanness have you kept? I love these questions...!
I reserved the right to be an American when it suits me.
Yes! We contain multitudes, and we’re gonna use ‘em
Thanks! An interesting conversation, I'm glad you recorded and posted it. It covers a lot of topics I find myself thinking about from time to time.
Had I watched the conversation as it unfolded, I might have asked a question or two. Many of these conversations about identity and the experience of Americans who have left home for elsewhere refer to a common American experience and identity, seemingly referring to an American monoculture that embraces such concepts as "exceptionalism" (or "privilege, as Dan seem to interpret it--and how I see it, too). How does that square with the actual diversity of American culture and the concept of a "melting pot" that Gregory refers to? (Note that ca. 15 percent of current US citizens were born in another country.)
Is the concept and identity you hold as Americans itself exceptional, one that might not be shared uniformly in the US? Is it an identity associated with some class of non-indigenous, anglophone Americans who are generations removed from immigrant forbears? Is it the lingering sense of otherness one experiences living in other cultures that provoke us to reflect on this topic?
A different topic, perhaps, but I also feel that some Americans these days are keen to impose otherness as an identity on their fellow citizens who do not *appear* to be part of a prevailing anglophone monoculture. Maybe part of another conversation sometime ...
Hi John! Thanks so much for listening, and your thoughtful reply! You're absolutely right that these conversations can't help but relying on broad generalizations. Sometimes that's just how nations work--I do believe there are some shared values and ways of thinking!--but other times this totally misses the point.
Last year I wrote a piece about Americans abroad thinking themselves 'exiles' and a reader patiently noted that there are plenty Americans *who are already exiles from somewhere else* and would read the question very, very differently! Writing/speking in the internet is a great way to learn your own blindspots.
One of the great pleasures of living abroad is bathing in that 'otherness' you feel in another country. Kiwis will do or say something here and you get these flashes like--aha! That's just not the way this would roll at home, and I never realized this was an 'American' thing!
Maybe I'm romanticizing this in these strange days we're living through. I think we could use a few easy generalizations to hold us together--not the bullshit racist ones, either. Big tent stuff. Maybe we can start with our comically loud speaking voices and go from there. More conversations ahead, for sure!
Thanks for the follow up, Dan. As for « bathing in that ´otherness’ you feel in another country, » it can be a pretty cold bath. Read the first part my essay here if you’re curious to see what I mean: https://open.substack.com/pub/leavingamerica/p/thoughts-about-inequality-identity?r=1u1uw5&utm_medium=ios.
"Food is the best argument for cosmopolitanism"--YES
Also sometimes I think I'm the only poor American whose parrnrs never ordered Mexican food.
And thank you Dean for that 1-100 trick for deepening conversations!!
Hi Rebecca! Mexican food will always welcome you home. For this AZ/TX boy it's more or less air. And that 0-100 trick I thought I knew so well is currently messy my US/NZ boundaries pretty fierce...use wisely :)
Great conversation, guys!
Thanks, Lucy! And thanks to you and Elizabeth for the inspiration!
Was a great convo. Could not tune in for all, being at work, but will go back. Mint stuff, between you two.
Hi Brad! Glad you dug it! You feel all this for sure! Gave you a shoutout, as an American in NZ who (I think) still feels American. Me too. Mostly. Ah, the big messy questions!